June 28, 2017

Government; the Good the Bad and the…What are They Planning

As I thought about writing this article, a couple different sayings came to mind; “don’t throw the baby out with the bath water” and “where there is smoke there is fire”.  Before you read any further, I feel the need to give a couple disclaimers.  First, I do not consider myself a conspiracy theorist.  In fact, I tend to dismiss the vast majority of subjects in the realm of conspiracy, unless there is enough smoke to hint at fire.  At those times, I get as much evidence as I can and use my rational, logical brain to decipher it.

Second, I am not anti-government.  I am just very pro-citizen.  When I say “government”, I mean government as a whole, not just one administration or party, unless otherwise specified.  I actually like idea of government the way it was intended very much; to protect the citizenry and do what it can to encourage “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”.  Personally, I believe our local, city, county and state government should have a larger role in our lives than federal government should.  I do not believe that the Founders had the behemoth that has become of the federal government in mind.  There are many quotes from the Founders that evidence this.  Here are just two from Thomas Jefferson:

“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty.”

“My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.”

Don’t throw the Baby out with the Bath Water

In case you’re unfamiliar with this idiom, it means: don’t throw out something good when trying to get rid of something bad.  I have noticed a pattern with people who have seen government, over the years, do things that do not align with their beliefs who then become bitter toward government.  These people tend to “throw the baby out with the bath water”, and either forget or overlook that there are some very good things that come from government.

Our taxes are used to fund the strongest military the world has ever seen.  This isn’t to say I am pro war.  I actually wish we would never see another war, ever!  But since there is no chance of that, I want to make sure the hero’s in our military receive the highest training and are as well-equipped as possible.  I also think those who are injured while serving our great nation should be taken care of once they come home.  Taxes also fund the heroes who serve us locally, in police and fire departments all across the nation.

The Federal Emergency Management Administration (FEMA) takes a lot of flak.  Some of it is deserved but not all of it.  Some of the biggest complaints against FEMA came after hurricane Katrina when people claimed that FEMA took too long to respond.  Many people are not aware that the federal government needs to be invited in by the local government.  That invite was slow to come after hurricane Katrina.

“FEMA’s mission is to support our citizens and first responders to ensure that as a nation we work together to build, sustain and improve our capability to prepare for, protect against, respond to, recover from and mitigate all hazards.”

I think FEMA’s mission is admirable.  However, I think there is some failure in the execution of that mission.  I have gotten a small glimpse behind the curtain to see how FEMA and local governments work together.  I have seen multiple trailers waiting for possible flooding, ready to go into action if needed.

FEMA also puts out a huge amount of information related to individual preparedness and encourages citizens to have a kit (albeit not enough) and a plan.  I am subscribed to some FEMA emails and have seen many seminars offered online that any citizen can attend for free.

I think one of the best things to come out of FEMA is the Community Emergency Response Team (CERT).  Trudee and I went through CERT, which I wrote about here. CERT was created because of the huge response from citizens wanting to help after 9-11.  The training in CERT equips citizens to be able to act in local emergencies and assist authorities.  In Minnesota the CERT team in the county I was trained was activated for the 35W Bridge collapse.  The team was activated again when there was a Minneapolis police officer murdered.  They were activated to form a perimeter and keep people out of it.  The team has also been activated for floods that happen in the spring as well.

I have caught flak for supporting CERT and for having a widget on the right side of the blog so that people can find training near them.  I chock this up to individuals throwing the baby out with the bath water.  The training and knowledge we gained can’t be attained by regular citizens any other way.


Where There is Smoke, There is Fire (or at least enough heat to pay attention to)

This may not be the best idiom for this because, while there is definitely smoke, I’m not sure there is fire.  Something is causing the smoke.  The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has done some things in the last few years that are concerning, especially in the last twelve months.

This portion of the article was very difficult to write about.  Covering things that are often seem as being topics of conspiracy theorists while maintaining an objective position and yet saying that there are some things that are concerning isn’t easy.  I have typed and deleted more sentences than I can count.  I debated even writing this portion, but I think these are things you should be aware of.

I get emails now and then about the government getting ready for martial law, FEMA camps, drones and other type things.  When the rumors of these things started, I blew them off, but in the last year the smoke has gotten thicker.  I’m not going to say “the President and DHS are coming for us”, but the smoke is too thick for me to outright dismiss it.  If you’re one of the people that send me this type of information, please understand that I am not making fun of you at all.  I appreciate it, as some of the articles you send are things I wouldn’t normally get to see.  Please keep them coming!

There is a lot of information that is presented as fact, when it looks like the author is drawing conclusions based on a few pieces of information.  Because of that, I’ll say now that I will only cover topics that I have verified to the best of my ability and I’ll only provide the information and give my opinion of it.  You draw your own conclusions, even if that means you dismiss it.  Like I said, I dismissed it until fairly recently.
FEMA Camps, Internment Camps, Labor Camps, Prison Camps

This is one of the items I have dismissed for years but it keep popping up.  There are two documents that are concerning.  The first is “R210-35 Civilian Inmate Labor Program”.  I was able to authenticate this as a real Army training manual.  I wasn’t able to authenticate FM 3-39.40 “INTERNMENT AND RESETTLEMENT OPERATIONS” as a real training manual, although the website Foreign Policy explains that the document is, in fact, real.  It isn’t quite the inflammatory document some make it out to be.  Both documents were created prior to President Obama being elected the first time.  One was written in 2005 and the other has a date of 2010.  I believe that is when it was most recently updated, though I could be wrong.

From “R210-35 Civilian Inmate Labor Program”, its purpose is:

“This regulation provides Army policy and guidance for establishing civilian inmate labor programs and civilian prison camps on Army installations. Sources of civilian inmate labor are limited to on– and off–post Federal corrections facilities, State and/or local corrections facilities operating from on–post prison camps pursuant to leases under Section 2667, Title 10, United States Code (10 USC 2667), and off–post State corrections facilities participating in the demonstration project authorized under Section 1065, Public Law (PL) 103–337. Otherwise, State and/or local inmate labor from off–post corrections facilities is currently excluded from this program.”

This document is obviously for American citizens.  It speaks about existing prisoners from federal prisons.  It doesn’t look like this document was created for prisoners during martial law.

FM 3-39.40 “INTERNMENT AND RESETTLEMENT OPERATIONS” was largely written for use overseas, but does speak a bit about use on the homeland.

“2-39. Civill support is the DOD support to U.S. civil authorities for domestic emergencies, and for designated law enforcement and other activities. (JP 3-28) Civil support includes operations that address the consequences of natural or man-made disasters, accidents, terrorist attacks and incidents in the U.S. and its territories.

2-40. The I/R tasks performed in support of civil support operations are similar to those during combat operations, but the techniques and procedures are modified based on the special OE associated with operating within U.S. territory and according to the categories of individuals (primarily DCs) to be housed in I/R facilities. During long-term I/R operations, state and federal agencies will operate within and around I/R facilities within the scope of their capabilities and identified role. Military police commanders must closely coordinate and synchronize their efforts with them especially in cases where civil authority and capabilities have broken down or been destroyed.”

The document does have information on how the prison should be set up, where to put towers and the like.  I suppose that information could be used if Posse Comitatus was enacted, which “R210-35 Civilian Inmate Labor Program” references in the “Related Publications” section.


National Guard Training For Riot Control, Mass Detentions

Here is an article from SHTF Plan that covers information I have read other places as well. It details how some National Guard troops are being trained to deal with Civil Unrest. Below is one picture from the article, make sure to make note of the sign that reads “Food Now”.

Vigilant Guard


My Take

I have read that these camps do exist but are not related to FEMA.  FEMA does not employ enough people to run the camps.  The camps are said to be on military bases.  This way there is already an element of security and prying eyes can’t see inside.  “R210-35 Civilian Inmate Labor Program” does speak about using multipurpose buildings.  This would mean an active base could be turned into a prison camp in short order.

Do they exist?  I hope not.  If there are no active prison camps waiting for civilian inmates, I do believe there are bases picked and plans in place to make prison camps on short notice.  This isn’t conspiracy theory.  The government has plans for just about everything.
Police Equipped Like the Military and Training With the Military

There are many cases of joint “Urban Warfare Training” with military and local police agencies.  This brings up many questions, some of which are; since the police and military have different objectives, why are the two training together?  SWAT is usually the premium tactical police unit.  Why would local police agencies need this type of training for other officers?  Since we’re spending millions of dollars a day on a foreign war, why not train there with equipment that is already there?  Why would the military need to train on American soil?

Several local police agencies have used DHS funds to acquire military style equipment.  This also brings up questions.  I can understand some border towns or towns with a high gang population needing some heavier firepower, but the article states that Fargo, North Dakota spent $8 million on equipment that at one time was reserved for military only.
Over a 1.5 Billion Rounds

In the last year, DHS has ordered over 1,500,000,000 rounds of ammunition to be delivered over the next five years.  It was reported on Infowars.com that:

“Congressman Timothy Huelscamp revealed this week that the Department of Homeland Security has refused to answer questions from “multiple” members of Congress regarding its recent purchase of huge amounts of weapons and ammunition.

“They have no answer for that question. They refuse to answer that,” Huelscamp said.

“I’ve got a list of various questions of agencies about multiple things. Far from being the most transparent administration in the world, they are the most closed and opaque,” the Congressman added.”

DHS said that it is for their 100,000 officers for use over the next five years.  Some quick math shows that will give each officer 15,000 rounds each, to use over the next five years.  That breaks down to 3000 rounds a year or 250 rounds a month.  That settles it, I want to become a DHS officer!  I also know, from going through our local Citizen’s Academy and other sources, most law enforcement agencies don’t go through that much ammunition in a year, let alone a month!

I don’t remember the year drone attacks started being used on foreign soil, but it was a year or two later before Anwar al-Awlaki, an American-born member of al-Qaeda was killed by a drone strike in 2011.  I remember there was a lot of debate on whether or not the President had the authority to order the assassination of an American citizen without that citizen having due process.

To be honest, I had mixed feelings at the time; it’s not like we could send police to his American address to arrest him.  If we asked Yemen to hand him over, we would have been told to hold our breath.  On the other hand, it is a slippery slope, which recently has gotten a lot slipperier.

The Telegraph recently published an article called Barack Obama ‘has authority to use drone strikes to kill Americans on US soil’

Eric Holder argued that using lethal military force against an American in his home country would be legal and justified in an “extraordinary circumstance” comparable to the September 11 terrorist attacks.

“The president could conceivably have no choice but to authorize the military to use such force if necessary to protect the homeland,” Mr. Holder said.

This is a completely different ball game.  If the offending terrorist is on American soil, we should make every effort to capture them and facilitate due process.  We could send beefed up local law enforcement that has the military style gear and has been training with the military. (tongue-in-cheek)

Seriously, summarily killing an American citizen on American soil without a trial or any due process sounds a lot like Stalin’s Russia when people feared a knock on the door in the middle of the night.  We should do better!
Final Thoughts

There are a few other things that I didn’t include because I couldn’t find a source I trusted enough.  If those things are true, then we’re in a lot worse shape than I thought.  If I can confirm them, I will let you know.  I don’t know what all of this means, but there is just too much for it to simply be dismissed.  I’ve spoken before about cognitive dissonance, a term coined by psychologist Leon Festinger in 1954, which is a psychological phenomenon that refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation.  These are often two opposing views.  The things mentioned in this article created cognitive dissonance for me.  The commonly held belief for me is the country I love and served.  The competing viewpoint is what it looks like it might be becoming.  I do not just blame President Obama.  President Bush gave us DHS, among other things.

Add it all up and it’s easy to see why people “throw the baby out with the bathwater”.  It can be hard to remember the good sometimes.

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  1. When I read the disclaimers at the top, I thought, “I could kiss this guy.” Err, um, a holy kiss. Yeah.

    Anyway, you and I think so very much alike in regards to conspiracy theory. I’ve been burned by it, so I am very cautious. But I bought the DHS conspiracy when I saw this:

    That government website tells us the DHS uses 15 million rounds of training per year.

    “But they didn’t actually buy 1.6 billion bullets, they just secured contracts for bullets in the event that they want to purchase them.” Cool, so they’ve secured contracts for enough training ammo for the next 106 years. (Huh?) Oh wait, it’s not training ammo. (Right!)

    A more common-sense explanation is that the government does have SOME intelligent people working for them, who DO know what will happen when (not if) we have a Cyprus. Just common sense, yo.

    I wish we could group up. I like your way of thinking.

    • Chris Ray says:

      I have a little insight in how government purchases work. When I was int he Navy I was attached to an A6E Intruder squadron. Not long after the first generation night vision came out, the Navy decided to retro fit all A6E’s for night vision. This was a very expensive and labor intensive project, I’m guessing it cost around 1 million per plane. The Navy signed a contract and we began to send one plane in at a time to be retrofitted. A month or two later the Navy decided to discontinue the A6, one would think we would have quit sending planes in to be retro fitted, but since the contract was signed the planes continued to be retrofitted.

      My point is, if they signed a contract for that ammo, they will pay for and receive it, their “just in case” statement is laughable.

      As far as grouping up, there are a lot of people on here I wish I could group up with, who knows what God has planed,

      • Dadgum that makes it even more serious. By the way, the HTML title attribute for this page doesn’t match the article title.

        My wife and I strongly believe we are to start or join a Christian community regardless what happens. Like Jack Spirko, we’re planning for good times or bad, and we strongly believe a community works both ways. Will keep you in the loop for whatever we do.

        • Chris Ray says:

          It doesn’t match because I made the SEO, which is how the title shows up when search engine pulls it up, and made a change to the actual title after. SEO is a pain as it has to be exactly so many characters.

          I agree on the community, I don’t know if you saw an article I wrote on building a preparedness based community, I’ll link it below just in case.


          Please do keep me in the loop.

        • Is the Teaparty group a good place to start letting folks know about planning for the good times or bad.

          • Chris Ray says:

            You’ll be around more people that are politically like minded, but that doesn’t mean they’ll be on the same page when it comes to preparedness. I think the chances of finding people more open to it are probably higher than at other places.

            Good on you for wanting to share preparedness with others.

      • Jim Moore says:

        I too support CERT and maintain multiple FEMA certifications.
        My issue about the 1.6 billions plus rounds of ammo being for training is that it isn’t SOP to use hollow point rounds for training. I’ve followed the reports and visited to the https://www.fbo.gov site to confirm their requests. Personally I believe there is an agenda well stated even before the current resident of the White House gained his residency. It’s best stated in one of his campaign speeches on July 2, 2008; “We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.” What is the intent for this force, we’ve yet to see. (http://youtu.be/Df2p6867_pw at just after 16 minutes).
        I firmly believe we are all instruments in setting of the stage for the last days before the Return of Christ to set up His Kingdom. No conspiracy there, just belief and conviction. (Exciting really, to be alive in this time of His-story) With this in mind I can’t discount in my somewhat warped mind that the Department of Homeland Security resembles the historic German “Schutz-Staffel.” The attacks on our Constitution also resemble the modifications done right before and during the Hitler administration. Being that the U.S. Military take an oath to support the Constitution and DHS hired hands don’t is alarming. But, hey, this too shall pass and we’ll see if history doesn’t repeat itself.
        Hey Chris, if you want to email me those ‘few other things’ I’ll be glad to help find if there is any reliable source.

        • Chris Ray says:

          I think you might be on to something with the civilian national security force; that bit has been stuck in my craw since he said it in 2008.

          I’ll get my notes on the few other items and send you an email Jim.

          • SlowBro says:

            Just a fact check on the “civilian national security force,” please have a look at the context of what he was saying. (You’re Bible readers, right? Context, context, context!) :-)

            Not an Obama supporter
            Obama, July 2, Colorado Springs, CO: [As] president I will expand AmeriCorps to 250,000 slots [from 75,000] and make that increased service a vehicle to meet national goals, like providing health care and education, saving our planet and restoring our standing in the world, so that citizens see their effort connected to a common purpose.

            People of all ages, stations and skills will be asked to serve. Because when it comes to the challenges we face, the American people are not the problem – they are the answer. So we are going to send more college graduates to teach and mentor our young people. We’ll call on Americans to join an energy corps, to conduct renewable energy and environmental clean-up projects in their neighborhoods all across the country.

            We will enlist our veterans to find jobs and support for other vets, and to be there for our military families. And we’re going to grow our Foreign Service, open consulates that have been shuttered and double the size of the Peace Corps by 2011 to renew our diplomacy. We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we’ve set.

            We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded. We need to use technology to connect people to service. We’ll expand USA Freedom Corps to create online networks where American can browse opportunities to volunteer. You’ll be able to search by category, time commitment and skill sets. You’ll be able to rate service opportunities, build service networks, and create your own service pages to track your hours and activities.

            This will empower more Americans to craft their own service agenda and make their own change from the bottom up.

          • Chris Ray says:

            Context is important, you are correct. You might be absolutely correct about what his intent is/was, but that does not fit with what he said.

            “We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded. We need to use technology to connect people to service.”

            That is unless AmeriCorps or Peace Corps started carrying firearms and going through military style training. I wrote a bit about this last year in the link below, check out the video. It has Rham Emanuel talking about this plan before Obama took office.

            I have always took this President at his word, when he said he would fundamentally transform America, he has in large part. While they haven’t created the “civilian national security force,” I don’t think he meant it as a form of AmeriCorps or the Peace Corps or why would he have said “We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.”

            I think that the “civilian national security force,” will actually encompass the TSA, or at least parts of the TSA.


          • SlowBro says:
          • SlowBro says:

            Another conservative blogger commenting on that speech also notes that he’s not speaking of a police force but who still has some interesting remarks:

          • SlowBro says:

            OK, could be. Get more facts and you may have a belieber.

    • Christopher, the 15 million rounds referred to on the website refers to FLETC, and the FLETC facility ONLY. DHS agents qualify 4 times a year at their local ranges. The 15 million does not reflect that number.

      I got a little concerned by this myself until I broke it down by the numbers.

      Agency courses of fire vary but typically 100-150 rounds per agent are required (handgun only). Practice ammo is also distributed each quarter (typically another 100-150 rounds). That’s up to 1200 rounds per agent per year. Times 100k agents is 120,000,000 rounds per year, just for regualr re-qualifying. All of that is only accounting for handgun ammo! Now add in shotgun shells (slug and buck shot) and long gun ammo (yes LE agencies frequently issue M-4s).

      And yes, it’s all duty-grade ammo. DHS (and many other LE agencies) do not use “training ammo” and haven’t for many years. Train with what you carry. That’s nothing new.

      Pull out the old calculator (or better yet, the one on your computer) and the numbers, however staggering, do start to add up. It is also true that the 1.5 billion rounds have not been physically obtained by DHS. They are in fact, on contract for production and purchase.

      The point is, no one should become alarmist over this stuff. Stay focused on the things that are an immediate threat like some BS immigration reform act (as if the borders are secure, yeah sure), unemployment, out of control spending on free-loaders or giving money to countries that hate us.

      • Chris Ray says:

        So I’m alarmist when I say I am concerned over the government ordering 1.5 billion rounds? I don’t see how that concerning me is alarmist, if this type of purchase was normal, no one would raise any concerns. But DHS has been around for ten years, and this is the first time i have heard anything like this.

        you are correct that it is a contract for ammo to be delivered over the next five years, I don’t see why that matters, it will still be delivered.

        • Chris, don’t be so defensive. I was referring to the buzz that this has generated on the internet recently. And as I understand it (again, not seeing the contracts for myself) the quantities are for maximum production/purchase over the five-year period if needed. So I don’t think anyone can say positively that the total will still be delivered.

          But let us say that they will be delivered. Again, so what? If DHS purchases 1.5 (or whatever the number is now) over the next 5 years, expending over 600 million rounds (conservatively) during that period, that would leave enough in inventory for the following five years. Where is it written that DHS will continue to make large purchases next year or over the next ten years for that matter? Now if this kind of purchasing continues for the next few years, then I really will become concerned.

      • SlowBro says:

        This could be good news. If can you validate these things you may have a belieber. Here is a list of your assertions. Do you have any links on government agency websites to validate what you say?
        * DHS trains elsewhere beside the FLETC
        * They only use duty-grade ammo
        * 1200 rounds are issued per year

        (I validated that there are around 100k firearm-carrying employees.)

        Also, 1,200 x 100K x 5 years = 600M. That leaves 1B shotgun shells and long gun ammo. That would mean that every agent must carry a shotgun, M-4, or both, and practices with them more often than with a handgun. I don’t see that happening, do you?

        Does anyone know the composition of the 1.6B order? Aren’t they mostly handgun bullets?

        Does anyone know if the DHS already had stockpiles before the recent ramp-up? As Chris said, this is the first time I’ve heard anything like this.

        My money is still on the likelihood that there are some intelligent people working in the government who can do Cyprus math. That’s not alarmist, that’s just common sense. If I were in their position I’d be doing some stocking up, too.

        • Purchase orders are now approximately 2.3B:

          This link shows that the DHS claims it has 264M stockpiled. If one multiplies the average purchases over the last three years, you get 600M, leaving 1.964B for a Cyprus-style collapse.

          By the way, that link tells us that the TSA subdivision (and probably others) of the DHS does NOT only use duty-grade ammo.

          • That only refers to TSA using lead-free practice ammo (somehow I see the EPA’s hand in that one). All other agencies use duty ammo (with the exception of a limited amount of simunition rounds for live training).

            Thank you for that link BTW.

            The bottom line is this: I do think there are things to worry about with this administration (and I mean plenty). I see a lot of things I don’t like and I KNOW firsthand that there are outright lies being told to the public. I just think this is not one of them. Secret build-ups don’t appear on budget requests and open bids. It’s good to stay vigilant but don’t get too focused on something that is still plausible.

            BTW, if you want to know one of the lies…this whole immigration reform thing is bogus. The whole bit about brokering a deal for the past couple of months is nonsense. They have known for the past couple of years (or longer) what they are going to “announce” next week or so.

            It was supposed to come out this week but it’s been pushed back until next week (or further) because they are hoping there will be something that distracts the public over the next week (North Korea incident, a mass shooting, Justin Bieber changes his hair color, whatever) so they can push it through.

            Don’t believe me? Start asking about how many Immigration Judges and case workers at CIS (Citizenship and Immigration Services) were hired in the past six months in order to process the new Democrats…I mean…legalized immigrants). Also take a closer look at how they have held back ICE agents (their union president even testified in front of Congress that the administration was fabricating statistics) over the past few years. The woman jumping the fence when the Senators were touring the border fence? Staged. I can’t prove that openly so don’t ask. But trust me, it was staged.

            Sorry to get off-topic, but I just don’t want anyone screaming “government shill” or whatever because I’m trying to dispel some concerns over the ammo contracts.

        • Jim Moore says:

          Ha, you made me look up my research from last year Christopher. I show 73 million of the 1.6 Billion round ordered last year as .223 and close to a million round of .308. So I wouldn’t think the majority would NOT be handgun. There are a few handguns chambered in .223, but very few. That is most widely used in an AR-15 or clone or the newer M4’s of current military issue, I believe. I ain’t no expert for sure. Still the most troubling to me is the majority ordered were match quality hollow-point rounds. Seems to me using hollow-points on targets in practice you would need to buy a lot more targets than if you use ball or FMJ, but then again, that wouldn’t be unlike a Government operation. Another unturned stone is why the Weather Service and the Social Security Administration would need hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammo that they ordered last year along with their bullet-proof, stop and go lighted gate stations. Fun stuff.

          • SlowBro says:

            Yet another nail in the coffin for the “this is business as usual” debunk. Thanks, Jim.

          • SlowBro says:

            Interesting note on match quality hollow-points: “Match or target hollow-point bullets are designed for precision target use, and no consideration is given to their expansion or other terminal ballistic performance. The United States military, for example, uses hollow-point bullets in some sniper rifles for their exceptional accuracy at long ranges, and believes that the hollow-point does not result in wounds significantly different from full metal jacket ammunition in practice.”

        • Christopher,
          Well, I appreciate you wanting website to “verify” this information but let’s keep in mind that the almighty internet is not the definitive word on anything. Show me a website that says one thing, I’ll find another that says the opposite.

          Anyway, the information is out there.

          To your first point, FLETC has locations at Charleston SC, Glynco GA and Artesia NM. However, I think you are mixing up “training” with routine firearms qualification. Regular quals take place at local ranges all over the country (even our wasteful government doesn’t fly 100K agents to three locations four times a year). But there is also additional training for special units such as BORTAC and SRT that is conducted regionally as well.

          As far as duty-only ammo being used, that is a well-known fact. What can I say, go ask any random DHS agent I suppose. Short of asking to observe a regular quarterly qual, I don’t know what kind of proof you are looking for. Perhaps jump onto a discussion board on Delphi or somewhere and ask.

          To your third point, Google “course of fire” for various agencies and you will see the rounds expended per qual and realize that agents generally run 2 courses of fire per qual, four times a year. Again, ask around in the right places about practice ammo that is handed out.

          As far as shotgun and long gun ammo, keep in mind that expending rounds at regular qualification does not mean that each and every agent is carrying a shotgun or rifle on a daily basis (most BP agents in the field do however) so with respect that kind of misses the point.

          I’m not trying to account for every single round as I don’t have an exact breakdown of the orders. In fact, no one here or on any other website does from what I can tell. I hear “reports of” but I have not seen one copy of the order(s). I do know however, that in addition to the .40 S&W, 5.56 and 12 ga, the orders also include 9mm, .38 special and other calibers. The point is, most of these rounds can be accounted for.

          • SlowBro says:

            “I just don’t want anyone screaming ‘government shill'” Understood. I’m not screaming it :-) Have been in your shoes. If you help me, I may join you.

            You’d doing good. This is a polite discussion of facts and you haven’t lost your cool. 2Tim 2:24-26 tells me to be kind to everyone; Hope I have not spoken offensively.

            “let’s keep in mind that the almighty internet is not the definitive word on anything” Hence I asked for govt websites :-)

            “keep in mind that expending rounds at regular qualification (..) so with respect that kind of misses the point.” Was giving the benefit of the doubt. With that in mind, go back and have another look at my question.

            “I’m not trying to account for every single round” Understoond, but even if I give the benefit of doubt you’ve only accounted for 600M of 2.3B orders, in addition to 264M inventory. That’s less than 1/4 the order+inventory, over 5 years. As Chris said, it’s not an order that may-or-may-not be delivered; In his experience it WILL get delivered.

            “I have not seen one copy of the order(s).” Here’s a small one:

            The other purchase orders have been documented elsewhere.

            “All other agencies use duty ammo” Can you back that assertion? You’d asserted before that “DHS (and many other LE agencies) do not use ‘training ammo’” but I’d demonstrated that at least the TSA does.

            Both your and official figures averaged out add up to 600M over 5 years. But they’ve placed orders for almost four times what they’ve historically needed. And don’t forget they already had 2.27 year’s worth to begin with.

            Let’s apply Occam’s razor. Suppose you’re a government middle manager, and can do math. You see the U.S. cannot continue on the path we’re on. Your division will be responsible to quell riots that break out. You know there’s a high probability they’ll break out within the next ten years. Wouldn’t /you/ be stocking up?

          • SlowBro says:

            The link I provided for the purchase order may be either 21.6M — or just 240K. Hard to tell. So here’s some more facts.

            Here’s a bullet supplier boasting that DHS ordered up to 450M rounds from them over five years:

            FLETC ordering 64M over five years, which might be a normal amount for their 15M per year. https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=af238e489ad305f989938ee81e9be70e&_cview=0

            ICE ordering up to 165M rounds of .223 over five years, which is 33M/year. That’s 11M/year more than their purchase history, and it leaves nothing left over for handguns: https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=c432be5826bf182b180ab4c2392aa978&tab=documents&tabmode=list

      • excuse me…for adding my 2 cents. Chris: When who was the last time you purchased ammo? Sounds like to me that you will rely on the government when the shtf. My suggestion…don’t.
        I’ve been attempting to buy ammo for the past few months, with little if any success! And speaking with sporting goods OWNERS(not sales people), when asked when do you expect the next shipment of .22 rounds? (As an example) Jokingly he says” What are they? I haven’t seen them in such a long time, I forget what they look like!” And this is a Guy who owns the shop!
        So as far as your “guesstimation” on the governments buying hollow point ammo, It’s OUTLAWED(Check the Geneva convention: which the US is a Signatory) in wartime because it’s considered to powerful and does excessive bodily damage. So I’m of the “opinion” that your paycheck comes from the DOD. And if I’m wrong, please correct me and please state what/ where I can access your reference materials. And if you attack my reasoning, please do so rationally. Let’s let the great “unwashed”(a group which i belong) be the judge of our arguments.With Respect: Paul

        • I know you didn’t mean me, but I want to comment on the ammo shortage. I’m surprised to hear you still can’t find ammo, I have seen full shelves the last couple times I have looked. I know on line companies have a fair amount of stock as well.

  2. Re. Teaparty and sharing:
    Hit the lady’s section of Chris’s forum for other perspectives, but if you want to start sharing, start small, with the Red Cross & FEMA suggestions. Once people have three days, then 2 weeks, it’s easier to point out the nicety of not having to fight into a grocery store for upcoming hurricanes, the easy breath of 30-day supplies that can go in a car and make a house fire less expensive, and the breathing room of a full secondary pantry in case of job loss. Kind of a “baby steps, alphabet-before-essays” kind of slow ramp-up. Too, it helps weed out who might be open to more without exposing yourself. :)

    Tactical training:
    I don’t know if anybody remembers the LA rampage before cops routinely had AR’s. If my family had been on that street, I’d have wanted the cops as well-armed as the criminals. I still do. And I want those cops to be well versed in echoing buildings when an active shooter is in a school. Now, excess ammo…yes, absolutely, a little worrisome, and I’m a little concerned about some of the other DHS and NATO talk being bandied around, but I can’t confirm it all. However, if DHS thinks it needs more ammo, so do I. Between government “preps” and Sandy, I’ve had an easier time getting some people I know to buckle down.

    That all covered, I was lucky enough to cover and train with MPs, grunts, CBP, and local and state police while assigned in the SW. I learned to cook in the South, but I appreciated tips from my Hispanic and Italian co-cooks here and there. Everybody brings something to the table. Cross training is important and it’s a lot cheaper to do it without overseas flights.

    Sometimes one or another has a tactic that can be incorporated, sometimes it’s facilities. The air stations used to let all kinds of K9s come in and train using different structures and areas, and used to let our K9s come in and train with groups assembled for cop training, to keep the dogs exposed to new things and out of a rut.

    Chris, awesome, awesome post. Ditto the kiss.

    • Chris Ray says:

      Thanks Rebecca!

      I do want our police equipped as well or better than criminals too. But I think the average SWAT training is sufficient, I’m not so sure that training needs to be with the military, they have two very different roles. Police “protect and Serve” Military “kill people and break things”, I know the role of the military is much more broad than that; but when we send out military toward another country, that is the what we send them to do.

      Cross training is fantastic, and I could even see the advantage of police training with specialized military units in certain settings. But I don’t see a need for it, or for military equipment in North Dakota, Minnesota or many other states.

  3. Jim Moore says:

    Interesting and informative documents you shared Chris, thanks.
    Here’s one you might like to read from West Point’s Combating Terrorism Center; http://www.ctc.usma.edu/posts/challengers-from-the-sidelines-understanding-americas-violent-far-right

  4. “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.” – Mark Twain

    People are rightfully concerned that military type law enforcement may be used against innocent civilians and anything is possible. But you know, Mutant Zombie Bikers are American citizens, too. And not all Flash Mobs dance. Being aware of possibilities, confirming as much of the information as we can and making arrangements to avoid danger as much as possible is about all we can do. There is a lot of fear mongering these days and if a person gets caught up in it, it mentally / emothionally paralyzes them. We are coming up on a Red Sea event and we’d be better off exercising our faith muscles rather than our fear muscles.

    • Chris Ray says:

      I agree with you, we need to be aware, but not let it make us afraid.

      “We are coming up on a Red Sea event and we’d be better off exercising our faith muscles rather than our fear muscles”

      I like that.

  5. SlowBro says:

    As I said above, I agree with you: I am not given to conspiracy. However, ALL born-again Christians are conspiracy theorists. We believe that forces are conspiring to conquer and destroy the world, especially Christians. How we differ from the tinfoil-hatters is we may not believe human agents are doing this consciously with an overarching plan in mind. They might just be incompetent :-)

    But make no mistake, there IS a systematic plan to divide and conquer. Stand strong, brothers. Seek first the Kingdom. I call Luke 12 “The survivalist’s chapter.” Go look and meditate.

    • Chris Ray says:

      I never thought about it like that, but you’re right, all Christians are a sort of conspiracy theorist.

  6. Jim Moore says:

    I find some pretty interesting facts about the Ready Reserve Corp too. They even have their own uniforms and commissioned officers. Check this out; http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/03/29/presidential-memorandum-delegation-authority-appoint-commissioned-office

  7. Plan for the worst,hope for the best,….means your a right wing nut in the media

  8. There are no conspiracy theories, only conspiracy fact. Government in and of itself is evil.

    • Chris Ray says:

      I’m not sure I would agree, completely anyway. Some government is needed, and if kept small and used to protect the citizenry, I’m all for it. Government that votes itself more money and power, can be evil.

  9. Hi Chris,
    There’s a few more things you should look at. I’m a little short on time so I’ll be brief. One is the NDAA which you’ve probably already seen. Basically it eliminates or could eliminates amendments 1, 4, 5, 6 and 7… maybe more. Then there’s HR 6566. Google that. It’s pretty scary. I try to read stuff right off the govt site so there’s no 3rd party slant on it… still pretty scary. There was another I found very unsettling but I can’t recall right off! I read a LOT off the govt sites. Yes, I’ve seen the FEMA camps and thousands of coffins stockpiled too. Add all these things up along with the attacks on the 2nd amendment…. And, I agree, something IS up!!

    • Chris Ray says:

      Those documents do sound familiar, but I have read so much in the last year I’m not sure if I’ve read them or not, so I’ll take a look. Thanks for mentioning them.

      • To help you save some time, this is the site for HR 6566. Note that it was “added on” in sept 2012 to amend the Homeland Security Act of 2002. Maybe that’s why nobody seems to know about it. http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/hr6566/text
        There’s lots of others if you google HR6566 but I like to go to the source.

      • This is the one for NDAA. It’s painfully long… but NOT as bad as the horrific health care bill!!! But, you might want to google and find something you feel is fairly trustorthy. This is the govt site: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/hr1540/text A fair and not as painful to read alternative might be http://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/ndaa This is an excerpt from that: In December 2011, President Obama signed the 2012 NDAA, codifying indefinite military detention without charge or trial into law for the first time in American history. The NDAA’s dangerous detention provisions would authorize the president — and all future presidents — to order the military to pick up and indefinitely imprison people captured anywhere in the world, far from any battlefield. The ACLU will fight worldwide detention authority wherever we can, be it in court, in Congress, or internationally.

  10. SlowBro says:

    As I think about it, it doesn’t matter if the excessive DHS ammo purchases are true. I surmise they’re doing it to prepare for economic collapse (not to round us up as some conspiracists insist).

    If that’s true, it doesn’t change anything for me. I’m prepping for economic collapse no matter what. So what if some government insiders are also prepping? The more, the merrier :-)

  11. I would like to know what you think about all of the videos claiming ‘a hoax’ regarding the Sandy Hook shootings. I have to tell you, at first i thumbed my nose at most of them but, some of their points are very compelling…particularly concerning the Parkers and the aerial response videos which we only saw short clips of.

    • Chris Ray says:

      To be honest I didn’t watch much of it, so I’m not familiar with all of the claims. Do I believe that there were some false claims made to further the gun control argument, yes. Do I believe the entire thing was a hoax, or perpetrated solely for furthering the gun control argument, nope.

  12. SlowBro says:

    About the bullet purchases: Another blogger noted that in order to judge whether the current purchase orders of over 4.27 times previous historical needs is unusual, you must look at previous contracts to see what the ceilings were back then. To which I replied true, but I still think it’s odd to request so much more than you know you need. Government mismanagement?

    Chris Ray claims above (this is anecdotal so grain of salt) that whenever things are ordered they are always delivered. But Chris: There’s a difference between saying I WILL install night vision on all of my planes, even though we’re scrapping them, because I’ve ordered them vs. I MAY install night vision on all of my planes, or maybe just some of them, and then only installing on some of them. See the difference?

    • Chris Ray says:

      Usually when I see the terms “(this is anecdotal so grain of salt)” they are used to say that the information may or may not be true, or the person saying it may or may not be truthful. I helped the planes transport to the hanger for retrofitting, I was also a party to conversations with people of higher rank about why we were having planes that were to be decommissioned, retrofitted.

      Yes there is a difference, so show me the contract saying they “may’ purchase. I have never heard of a contract worded on what someone may want, the reason contracts exist is so that both parties agree what the terms are, and what they can hold the other party to.

      Show me the contract that says they MAY purchase.

  13. Christopher,

    Just to clarify, the link you provided is for 240k rounds at maximum. It is fairly straight forward if you know what to look for (kind of like reading “legalize”). Keep in mind, this does not mean the maximum will be purchased (although for that specific contract, it will probably go to the max being relatively small).

    The 450 million “purchase” you cited is again, a maximum contract. It does not mean that the maximum will be actually purchased. The company is of course going to boast about this for their own promotional purposes. As you can see from the link you provided, bid prices are based on the maximum quantity reflected in the contract thus yielding a better price for the purchaser, even if the maximum is not ultimately acquired. This is not a practice restricted to the government; when any big business makes purchases in these numbers, this is how things are done.

    You quoted me and stated:
    ““All other agencies use duty ammo” Can you back that assertion? You’d asserted before that “DHS (and many other LE agencies) do not use ‘training ammo’” but I’d demonstrated that at least the TSA does.”

    My response:
    -Actually I can back it with firsthand knowledge. And I had a “could have had a V-8” moment myself when I first responded about the frangible ammo. The lead-free frangible ammo ordered by TSA is DUTY AMMO. Air Marshals are part of TSA and they carry frangible ammo on aircraft for obvious reasons. The reason they allocated so much for training is because the Air Marshals practice more than most other agencies (again, for obvious reasons). They were not stating that the frangible (type) was to be used for training only and not duty; they were referring to the quantities being allocated for training and duty seperately. I looked back on this again and remembered what the AMs carry. So, yes they too train with duty ammo…

  14. SlowBro says:

    “The 450 million ‘purchase’ you cited is again, a maximum contract. It does not mean that the maximum will be actually purchased.” I acknowledged this in my very first post, and also when I introduced to you the 450M link. I said, “**up to** 450M.”

    Yes, I understand these are maximum bids. My question is: Don’t you think that’s weird?

    Take for example the 450M order. ICE has historically needed 110M over 5 years. I’m sure they use bullets other than .40cal. That order is for only .40cal. If we assume ICE carries 90% .40cal and 10% others (a conservative estimate), they have ordered four and a half times their historical requirement. Isn’t that a little odd?

    You say it’s common business practice but think about it: Do they really need to bid to the moon? A contract for up to 150M would get the same bulk quantity price. Why not order 500 trillion bullets? That’d be a real steal! :-)

    “The lead-free frangible ammo ordered by TSA is DUTY AMMO.” Not according to the TSA. From the govt link above, “Approximately 21 million rounds of TSA’s current inventory are reduced-hazard, lead-free frangible training ammunition, which is used **exclusively** for training.”

    Do other departments do the same?

    Please reconsider just one thing. Use the search feature in your browser and read the part about Occam’s razor. Not sure if you saw that. And then I’ll let you have the last word. God bless!

  15. SlowBro says:

    Interesting. The last order of .40cal from DHS’s ICE department back in 2009 was for up to 200M rounds:

    They were only halfway through that contract when they ordered almost two-and-a-half times more.

    There’s only one valid explanation in my mind for that kind of buildup: Stockpiling. Hey, I’m stockpiling stuff for a collapse, and so is the government. No surprises there.

  16. SlowBro says:

    A 2008 ICE order for up to 75M rounds of .40cal:

    (By the way, this is more in line with their historical usage.)

    So in 2008, just before the crisis, they ordered up to 75M .40cal, amounts consistent with their historical usage. As the crisis was boiling, with three and a half years left on that contract, they ordered up to 200M .40cal. While the crisis was still simmering, with two and a half years left on that contract, they ordered up to 450M.

    If this doesn’t scream “stockpiling,” you’re not paying attention.

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